Are Hell-believers just assholes?
Posted by John on March 9, 2008
Stay with me on this one. Notice the title doesn’t say “Christians” or “theists”, but “hell-believers”. That’s my focus for this post.
I want to speak to the people, Christians or otherwise, who believe in the notion of hell. These are people who believe that a certain subset of humanity will be punished for an eternity, based on some set of beliefs (or lack thereof).
I think these people are assholes.
The reason I think these people are assholes is that they believe that a portion of their fellow human beings are going to be tortured, painfully, for literally an infinite period of time–and they are cool with that.
A common reaction to the previous sentence, I expect, would be “No, Captain Jerk-face, we’re not COOL with it! We WANT you to be saved, just like us, so you can be happy!”
Well, okay, I think I follow you, but try this on: at least some of those people who are not currently “saved” (however you define that) will never be. For whatever reasons, they will not be “saved” by the moment of their death. You know this to be true. You know that some people will never be “saved”, and therefore you believe that they will be tortured with pointy things and fire and polka music, and you are okay with that.
You must be okay with that. You must be, because you are not pleading with your god to alter his criteria for salvation. Nor, I am guessing, have you ever done so.
You’re not holding mass prayer meetings with the goal of contacting the Almighty, petitioning for a “stay of damnation” for any of these souls you share the planet with.
Some of these people are your friends whom you love, or acquaintances you respect. And some of the rest must certainly be good and decent people. And yet you are not angry, or even displeased with your god.
So, I think you’re cool with the eternal torment of some decent people. And for that, I think you’re an asshole.
I think you’re an asshole because you believe that divine torture is okay.
I think you’re an asshole because you believe that some people deserve to be tortured for an eternity.
I think you’re an asshole because you actually label your god good, despite your belief that he has been and will be torturing people’s souls for eons.
But most of all, I think you’re an asshole because you think such a being is worthy of any kind of respect or is owed any sort of gratitude.
I don’t think I’d be able to muster anything but contempt for such a god.
So thank God I’m an atheist.
Ironwolf » Blog Archive » Carnival of the Godless #87 said
[...] was folding his laundry when the enlightening question hit him: Are Hell-believers just assholes? posted at The Happy Human. (450 [...]
No More Mr. Nice Guy! said
I agree, belief in Hell is barbaric and bloodthirsty, and anyone who still thinks that way is a neanderthal. Even Hitler doesn’t deserve Hell. If you gave him a trillion years in Hell for every Jew he killed, you’d still have to let him out eventually. And the idea that everything’s hunky dory because JHC “sacrificed” himself on the cross, and now we can avoid Hell just by saying some magic words to invoke him – that only makes the whole stupid idea even more barbaric.
Karen said
NMMNG, you denigrate Neandertals. There’s no evidence that they held such horrific views. I suspect most barbarians didn’t think that way, either, though I’m no expert on the subject.
I think part of the problem is that people who believe in the literal truth of a 2000-year-old collection of stories don’t have the imagination to really understand eternity.
Matt said
Blah this stupid blog software ate my original comment. You’re nuts if you think that I’m going to leave my e-mail address.
In any case, I can tell you that you are almost completely wrong. This “hell believer” strawman that you’ve created doesn’t resemble myself (when I believed in such things), nor anybody else I know. I’m certainly no expert at Christian culture in the US, but I wonder what experience you’ve had that would cause you to paint this particular picture…
John said
Matt – How am I wrong? Perhaps you can back that statement up with, you know, reasons. Or, like, um, examples. Or experiences or references or evidence. Or anything, really, that doesn’t require me to just take your word for it.
And what does it matter what experiences I’ve had? Maybe a Lutheran ate my baby sister, or maybe an Episcopalian rescued my cat from a burning building, or maybe both. How the hell does that impact the soundness of my reasoning?
Carl said
“You must be okay with that. You must be, because you are not pleading with your god to alter his criteria for salvation. Nor, I am guessing, have you ever done so.”
Re-read Genesis. Something else happens in the story of Sodom and Gomorra besides “all them queers get smited”.
At first God is set on definitely smiting the town, but then Abraham bargains with God to spare the town if even 10 righteous people can be found there. And God agrees to the new conditions.
Similar incidents occur with Moses and elsewhere.
It’s deeply incorrect to think that Christians shouldn’t be praying for universal salvation (not to say that they all are). But, it should be noted that Christians pray for that from both sides: that God will be merciful, and that we sinners will shape up and quit pissing God off so much (which technically also falls under the category of God’s being merciful).
Matt said
John – I had originally written more, but as I said my blog comment was eaten.
Here’s the thing – I no longer believe in any of this stuff, and it bores me to tears to talk about it. It’s much like debating whether Batman could beat-up Superman – after middle-school who cares?
The reason that your experience matters to me is because you talk about this stuff like you are observing it from far away. My suspicion is that you’ve watched something like e.g. Jesus Camp and that’s about it. I’m actually more interested in your motivation than I am in the points that you’ve raised.
Unfortunately, I cannot defend the strawman that you’ve created – that’s practically the point of a strawman, afterall – but I can say that I was brought up to believe in eternal damnation and I do not believe that any of your points applied to myself, nor to anybody I know.
For example, I was generally far too concerned about ending up in hell myself to gleefully wish it upon my enemies – and in fact, I would have agreed that no action on this planet was terrible enough to wish such punishment on anyone. Indeed, we certainly did spend time praying for God to alleviate the punishment of all sinners, especially those closest to us.
Further, hell was just a “fact” – certain things caused you to end up there. Whether I thought it was fair or reasonable never enterend the equation. Much in the same way that billions of people, including those who are closest to me, are going to die eventually. I think that sucks, but I can’t do anything to stop it.
Finally – God is good by definition. No action he makes or does not make, makes that any less so. The fact that it may appear unfair to us on Earth is simply due to our inability to understand God’s divine wisdom. I’m not saying it makes sense – but that’s what I was brought up to believe.
In other words, I hope you can understand how religious ideas such as these can ensare otherwise good people into a self-perpetuating mental loops. These are generally not assholes who gleefully think of their own salvation, and your eternal punishment – instead they are reasonable people who have been infected with the “mind virus” of religion. Your writing suggests to me that you do not even begin to comprehend the motivations and reasons behind religion. I suggest that you not dismiss such thinking so casually.
Matt
John said
Carl & Matt – thanks for the criticisms (seriously, I’m an amateur at writing, unless you count a handful of softball undergrad papers).
I see now that I was glib with this piece. I’ll respond with a full post in the next day or two.
Jeff Staddon said
Nice peice. BTW, not all Christians believe the Bible teaches an eternal hell. (Instead taking a position that the results of hell, not the event is the eternal) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism for more info.
Dan said
Hey John. I understand your feelings, and to a point, you’re right. These people should be either screeming bloody murder for repentence of the world or for god to change his mind. I on the other hand pleaded for the truth. This happened after realizing that God has to exist for us to be here. I asked that God reveil to me what is meant by the word hell in scripture. That night I got the answer. Go to bibletruths.com. By the way, if your only reason for being an atheist is because of some stupid doctrine of Christiandom which has no place in true scripture, then perhaps you are also an asshole.